Curse

Captain Robo · Oct 24, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Fixing the interaction between Frenzy and Rush would be easily answered by giving Rush a recharge.

Something small, like 4 seconds, that would basically constitute some thought on the part of the warrior when using frenzy.

It would be the same as the recent updates to Watch Yourself and Go For The Eyes. Those skills both have a four second recharge, but it really doesn't matter because you're never going to be in a situation where you NEED to be spamming watch yourself or GFTE any sooner than that.

In the case of Rush, that would also preclude more skillful use of frenzy, and be more balanced overall.

I'm against idiot-proof frenzy canceling, I'm all for making a warrior think twice about using frenzy unless he's sure he can stay in it for a certain amount of time.

Sk8tborderx · Oct 24, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Fixing the interaction between Frenzy and Rush would be easily answered by giving Rush a recharge.

Something small, like 4 seconds, that would basically constitute some thought on the part of the warrior when using frenzy.

It would be the same as the recent updates to Watch Yourself and Go For The Eyes. Those skills both have a four second recharge, but it really doesn't matter because you're never going to be in a situation where you NEED to be spamming watch yourself or GFTE any sooner than that.

I'm against idiot-proof frenzy canceling, I'm all for making a warrior think twice about using frenzy unless he's sure he can stay in it for a certain amount of time.

Then warriors will just take pious haste since a lot take rending touch anyway. If they take d dagger then they take dash.

Nerfing rush will not do much.

EDIT: Why do people have a problem with warriors? The real problem is paragons and walking trees.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 24, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Fixing the interaction between Frenzy and Rush would be easily answered by giving Rush a recharge.

Something small, like 4 seconds, that would basically constitute some thought on the part of the warrior when using frenzy.

It would be the same as the recent updates to Watch Yourself and Go For The Eyes. Those skills both have a four second recharge, but it really doesn't matter because you're never going to be in a situation where you NEED to be spamming watch yourself or GFTE any sooner than that.

I'm against idiot-proof frenzy canceling, I'm all for making a warrior think twice about using frenzy unless he's sure he can stay in it for a certain amount of time.

So effectively you want to give rush an 8+second recharge and the need to build that adren again. If there is any condi/blinds/hexes/or passive defense that 8 seconds just gets longer...
Paragons no longer can spam spear of lightning/harriers toss nor other energy skills because of the nerfs to WYS+GFTE, before you could.

Captain Robo · Oct 24, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

So effectively you want to give rush an 8+second recharge and the need to build that adren again. If there is any condi/blinds/hexes/or passive defense that 8 seconds just gets longer...
Paragons no longer can spam spear of lightning/harriers toss nor other energy skills because of the nerfs to WYS+GFTE, before you could.

Mmm, forgot that it doesn't gain adrenaline while recharging. Maybe that's not a good idea.

But paragons not being able to spam their attacks is a good thing. Even still, Watch Yourself is essentially 6 energy for free, plus a partywide armor increase, every 7-8 seconds. That's still crazy energy gain (more than 1/2 the energy gain of Offering of Spirit with half the "recharge") no matter how you look at it, so what if you can't spam.

I mean seriously, you can't have your cake AND eat it; the strength of the paragon should be party buffs with a side of moderate damage, not party buffs and insane spammable ranged dps.

Symbol · Oct 24, 2007, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Wish Rush, you can Frenzy almost 'at will', but you have to be careful about it because missing with an adrenal attack will remove a strike of adrenaline from your rush. This means warriors have to be more careful using adrenal attacks on protted targets, because you can suddenly lose your cancel stance and be caught absorbing massive damage. The skill of watching your adrenal attacks in Frenzy and choosing when it's worth the risk to Eviscerate is much more interesting than waiting out a recharge timer.

Yeah, but you gain adrenaline as you take damage, so it's not hard to get back that missing strike while frenzied. Take 25% damage and rush will be available again.

Byron · Oct 24, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Frenzy is the most balanced skill in the game. Rush is fine. You need adrenaline to activate it, so its useless anywhere but in the active frontline.

Captain Robo · Oct 24, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Frenzy is quite balanced, but Rush kind of makes it brainless. In my opinion, when a skill's drawback is completely negated, it becomes degenerate. While Frenzy/Rush is only viable in 8v8, it packs enough of a punch there to make up for its inherent inflexibility.

Even to see something small that forced a warrior to think ahead every time he used Frenzy would be preferable, like an extra line of text on frenzy that said "Your stance skills are disabled for 3 seconds (adrenaline based stances do not lose their gained adrenaline)." would be good.

Kyp Jade · Oct 24, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

First, i doubt the game engine can impliment a adrenaline based stances dont lose adren, since thats an extra few bits that need to be stored and transfered, when its easier/cheaper/faster to disable -> 0 adren (since you no longer need to store adren bits you save)

Second, its drawback is NOT negated by rush, hence the term stance canceling. if you want to gimp frenzy make it do something like you have cracked armor for 8seconds or some bandaid fix taht does nothing.

Captain Robo · Oct 24, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

I don't want to gimp Frenzy at all; I'd just like to see it used more intelligently.

I kind of see a problem when warrior play is reduced to:

Okay, get in the monks face.

Activate frenzy, whack whack whack

Blind on 1, get it off me!

whoops I'm taking damage, switch to rush.

Monk is kiting, catch up and bull's strike!

Blind again! Need a draw ffs!

Activate frenzy, whack whack whack

Uh oh, monk's getting up! SHOCK!

Time to spike! Wait, cancel blind again!

3..2..1 Frenzy->Eviscerate->Executioner's->Agonizing->Rush get the hell out of there!

Monk 6 needs to quiet down about that assassin! I'm spiking dammit!

Rinse, repeat.

It works... it just kind of lacks... finesse I guess.

twicky_kid · Oct 24, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

I don't want to gimp Frenzy at all; I'd just like to see it used more intelligently.

I kind of see a problem when warrior play is reduced to:

Okay, get in the monks face.

Activate frenzy, whack whack whack

Blind on 1, get it off me!

whoops I'm taking damage, switch to rush.

Monk is kiting, catch up and bull's strike!

Blind again! Need a draw ffs!

Activate frenzy, whack whack whack

Uh oh, monk's getting up! SHOCK!

Time to spike! Wait, cancel blind again!

3..2..1 Frenzy->Eviscerate->Executioner's->Agonizing->Rush get the hell out of there!

Monk 6 needs to quiet down about that assassin! I'm spiking dammit!

Rinse, repeat.

It works... it just kind of lacks... finesse I guess.

The short version is: it wins. And that's what matters.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 24, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

I don't want to gimp Frenzy at all; I'd just like to see it used more intelligently.

Bunch of stuff

1. You've covered only a small percentage of the tactics that good warriors use.

2. Taking away warrior's ability to frenzy regularly and use speed boosts that don't suck isn't going to promote skillful play. It's going to promote me bringing dervishes and sins, because a warrior who can't pressure effectively isn't worth bothering with.

Captain Robo · Oct 24, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

oh come on I'm not going to write a complete warrior tactics guide

Bankai · Oct 24, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Rush is different from Dash and Pious haste. Yes, people will take these if Rush is nerfed, but they have actual drawbacks. Rush has no drawbacks. Pious haste removes any prot the warrior has received, making it more easy to spike, even if frenzy is cancelled. Dash has an 8 second recharge, meaning that after cancelling, a warrior has to be wary of activating frenzy for 8 seconds.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 24, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

In practice, the enchantment-removal drawback of Pious isn't much of an issue in Frenzy cancelling. By the time the stance ends (unless you're Wild Throwed out of it), the spike has already come and gone.

For Dash, the issue is not recharge, but energy. Well, that and the fact that it's a steaming pile of crap for chasing a kiting target.

twicky_kid · Oct 25, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Rush does have a drawback but its not always apparent. There have been times when I activate frenzy for a spike but my adrenaline skills are blocked and not enough adrenaline to activate rush. Unless my monk is really on his A game that day its very risky.

Calling for a PS before the spike helps too.

Bankai · Oct 25, 2007, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Rush does have a drawback but its not always apparent. There have been times when I activate frenzy for a spike but my adrenaline skills are blocked and not enough adrenaline to activate rush. Unless my monk is really on his A game that day its very risky.

Calling for a PS before the spike helps too.

As mentioned before, the moment they even think of hitting you, the damage you take will have given you enough adrenaline to use Rush.

Byron · Oct 25, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Taking away warrior's ability to frenzy regularly and use speed boosts that don't suck isn't going to promote skillful play. It's going to promote me bringing dervishes and sins, because a warrior who can't pressure effectively isn't worth bothering with.

Exactly. The liberty to frenzy is what separates warriors from the 1-2-3 sin nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

As mentioned before, the moment they even think of hitting you, the damage you take will have given you enough adrenaline to use Rush.

That's kinda true. You will want to hit the cancel before the damage gets there. Relying on an enemy spike to be slow is not a tactic I would advise. Of course, sometimes you have no choice in the matter...

twicky_kid · Oct 26, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

As mentioned before, the moment they even think of hitting you, the damage you take will have given you enough adrenaline to use Rush.

If you are not dead before you cancel.....sure. Relying on dmg to so you can cancel frenzy is not sound advice.

Common tactics on a Bsurge is to blind right when you see frenzy activated. 9/10 they won't have enough adrenaline to activate rush.

Bankai · Oct 26, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

If you are not dead before you cancel.....sure. Relying on dmg to so you can cancel frenzy is not sound advice.

Common tactics on a Bsurge is to blind right when you see frenzy activated. 9/10 they won't have enough adrenaline to activate rush.

If you are dead before you cancel, your monks are horrible. And you are horrible. There will be at least 1 small hit from something, whether it's a shell shock or a bsurge, that gives you enough adrenaline to cancel.

twicky_kid · Oct 26, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

If you are dead before you cancel, your monks are horrible. And you are horrible. There will be at least 1 small hit from something, whether it's a shell shock or a bsurge, that gives you enough adrenaline to cancel.

Not quite. Its going to take quite a few hits for you to gain 1 adrenaline. Adrenaline gain from dmg is very very small. Your war or monk being bad has nothing to do with it. If you are able to predict when a spike is coming (which is not hard to do) spiking a war as he frenzy doesn't give your monk enough time to even react. Leading to the common tactic of PS on the war before spiking.

Try having a conversation that is based of tactics to exploit frenzies weaknesses instead of "OMG you fail because you died in frenzy." Very rarely will you ever see a war killed while both monks are alive and not on the retreat during a fight at the stand.